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MTrader Class - October 27, 2009

How do our preconceptions and perceptions of ourselves affect our trading? 


MTrader Class (C) copyright MTrader  2009

by Gimmie      

[09:02] <gimmie>  I had an interesting experience this weekend
[09:02] <raynice> IoI
[09:02] <gimmie>  would you like to hear about it?
[09:02] <CraigP> oh yes
[09:02] <raynice> do tell...
[09:02] <gimmie>  I may be able to tie it into trading
[09:02] <gimmie>  an analogy
[09:03] <gimmie>  I had these old snowsuits that belonged to Steffi... few years old..
[09:03] <gimmie>  ok,.. they were good quality.. Jack Wolfskin.. and very good shape.. hardly worn
[09:04] <gimmie>  I paid 75 euros for them I think... although it was like 5 years ago
[09:04] <gimmie>  but I decided... they are too nice to throw away
[09:04] <gimmie>  so I sold them on ebay
[09:05] <gimmie>  I watched.. almost in horror.. as people bid on them
[09:05] <gimmie>  one went for 89 euros.. and the other for 74 euros
[09:05] <CraigP> classics
[09:05] <gimmie>  more than I paid new.. several years ago
[09:05] <CraigP> old skool
[09:06] <gimmie>  I looked then at other jack wolfskin snow suits
[09:06] <gimmie>  and you could buy one.. instant buy.. brand new.. for 89
[09:07] <gimmie>  surely they must have known that
[09:07] <gimmie>  but I watched in the final people kept trying to outbid each other
[09:07] <gimmie>  and it was so clear.. that all logic was out the window
[09:07] <CraigP> maybe parents want their kids to be retro
[09:08] <gimmie>  they werent trying to get a good deal anymore.. they just wanted to win
[09:09] <gimmie>  it was that.. they had their heart set on it... had already a perception of themselves with this suit...
[09:09] <gimmie>  it was theirs
[09:09] <gimmie>  they had been watching it for days..
[09:09] <gimmie>  and they just werent willing to let it go..
[09:10] <gimmie>  they arent old enough to be "retro"... you can buy the same thing new now
[09:11] <CraigP> oh
[09:11] <gimmie>  and the rate that people kept bidding in the last moments... you could tell it was just motivated by... I want to win
[09:11] <gimmie>  the whole point to ebay.. is to get stuff cheaper.. good deals buying things used
[09:12] <gimmie>  but that purpose was completely ignored.. in the heat of battle..
[09:12] <gimmie>  it became emotional
[09:13] <gimmie>  the whole point of trading.. is to make money...
[09:14] <gimmie>  and to do that.. logically.. we have rules.. and everyone knows that you cant make money if you blow stops.. if you screw up and make trades for emotional reasons.. at bad times..
[09:15] <gimmie>  the averages wont work.. if you are freaking out and exiting after 5 cents repeatedly...5 trades in a row.. because you are afraid of it going against you.... and then on the 6th trade when it does go against you, you take a 50 cent stop
[09:16] <gimmie>  everyone knows.. that if you just track your trades.. and the times of will clearly see that most of your stops occur at slow times...
[09:16] <gimmie>  and most of the time.. when we break a rule... we have a nagging feeling at the time we do it... you usually know you are breaking a rule when you enter.. but you do it anyway.. hoping it works out
[09:18] <gimmie>  because I suspect... that just like the snowsuit people... our original intentions get thrown out the window in the heat of battle
[09:18] <CraigP> is my web cam on again?
[09:18] <gimmie>  at first we want to make a good trade.. and make money...
[09:18] <gimmie>  and then somehow... I dunno what happens.. it becomes about wanting to win.. not wanting to lose...
[09:19] <gimmie>  and all logic gets tossed out
[09:19] <gimmie>  and we wind up buying a 6 year old snowsuit for more than it cost new [09:20] <gimmie>  not that I know of Craig
[09:20] <gimmie>  why do you suppose that happens though ?
[09:21] <CraigP> you are on to something
[09:21] <CraigP> everything you  talk about, emotion, fear , greed, wanting to please.....
[09:21] <CraigP> wanting to win, is a strong desire for me
[09:21] <CraigP> difficult to control at times
[09:21] <gimmie>  wanting to win.. or fear of losing ?
[09:22] <CraigP> I really think it is wanting to win
[09:22] <CraigP> but I may have to meditate on that one
[09:22] <gimmie>  do you have a picture in your mind... of how your path should be going?
[09:22] <CraigP> yes
[09:23] <gimmie>  you know what I do?
[09:23] <CraigP> what?
[09:23] <gimmie>  maybe this is a ladies thing..
[09:23] <gimmie>  like.. this lady who bought this snowsuit..
[09:24] <gimmie>  I asked her what she planned to do with it... and they are going on ski vacation next week
[09:24] <gimmie>  I can imagine.. she has a very set idea.. of what her vacation will be like
[09:25] <gimmie>  she probably pictured her child.. in this yellow snow suit.. and its going to match perfectly with those gloves.. and she bought the matching hat maybe.. and the outfit will be complete.. and she wont have to go shopping on friday before she leaves.. and thats the picture in her head.. of how its going to be
[09:25] <gimmie>  once you have invested so much... in that picture of how its going to be... its a very bitter disappointment.. when one piece of the puzzle falls out of line
[09:26] <gimmie>  oh my god.. if I dont get the snowsuit.. then where am I going to find something to match the yellow hat... and when am I going to find the time.. this doesnt fit in my picture at all !
[09:26] <CraigP> hmmmmm
[09:26] <gimmie>  I NEED that snowsuit.. I dont CARE what it costs
[09:27] <gimmie>  because I am not willing to change my perception... of how that trade is supposed to go
[09:28] <gimmie>  and.. if that trade doesnt go well... like I planned... my whole time table of where my trading should be... is just a tiny bit more off
[09:28] <gimmie>  and the more that things go awry... the more disturbed I become
[09:29] <gimmie>  and the more disturbed I become... because my trading in general.. my time plan of where I will be in my trading by now.. isnt going the way I wanted..
[09:29] <gimmie>  the more I compromise my rules.. the more I change my methods.. I become restless and panicky
[09:30] <gimmie>  but its not that the rules dont work... its that our plans have been disturbed...
[09:31] <gimmie>  and that creates such an uneasiness in us.. that we screw up more
[09:31] <gimmie>  so we actually lose sight of what we were trying to accomplish in the first place... getting a good deal on a cheap snow suit...
[09:32] <gimmie>  and instead.. it becomes a battle.. a race.. to acheive our perception of the level of success we feel we should have by then
[09:32] <gimmie>  if that makes sense
[09:32] <CraigP> it does
[09:33] <gimmie>  ok
[09:34] <CraigP> I think it is time to put up your morning "saying" again
[09:34] <CraigP> I didn't want to call it a prayer
[09:34] <gimmie>  so how do we change this?.. how to we rein it in ?
[09:34] <KenWolff>  good thoughts...
[09:35] <CraigP> by being confident that all will be ok and good setup will come, and we will be grateful what for what appears
[09:36] <gimmie>  once you have invested so much... in that picture of how its going to be... its a very bitter disappointment.. when one piece of the puzzle falls out of line
[09:36] <gimmie>  so I think a key... is to have discussions like this...
[09:36] <gimmie>  to remind ourselves... over and over....
[09:36] <rhwi8> you nailed it, gimmie. just went through a bout of not matching the picture of where I want to be yet.
[09:36] <KenWolff>  I think this is a very important topic gimm....
[09:37] <gimmie>  hey craig... there are a lot of snowsuits out there... and whatever color you happen to find.. your vacation is going to be great... it might not be exactly the way you expected.. but maybe it will be even better ! [09:37] <rhwi8> had to take a step back away from the trading and look more internally
[09:37] <raynice> yes very good class...
[09:37] <gimmie>  let go a little bit.. of that picture you have of yourself
[09:37] <KenWolff>  I do that quite often....develope a picture and if anything changes it.... I get very upset and can't go on.... mentally tough
[09:37] <raynice> i have mixed feeling about goals...
[09:37] <KenWolff>  I will also become depressed...
[09:38] <gimmie>  yep.. me too
[09:38] <raynice> one hand it makes you work but on the other hand if you dont achieve it disappoints you
[09:38] <KenWolff>  yeah...
[09:39] <dez> I'm lucky. I have no clear pictures in my mind...
[09:39] <raynice> so saying ..i will do my best and let the chips fall where it may ...( but are you doing your best?)
[09:39] <KenWolff>  yeah... very apparent dez
[09:39] <dez> my IQ doesn't allow me to have too much of an imagination
[09:39] <rhwi8> i think cat said it best to me: "you set your goal without having a realistic view of what it would take to achieve that goal"
[09:39] <rhwi8> plus, now I picture myself as grumpy, unshaven bum. things are much better
[09:40] <KenWolff>  LOL
[09:40] <dez> good
[09:40] <gimmie>  these snow suits.. actually have.. matching jack wolfskin hats and gloves and scarves.. (which I am selling I wanted that perfect picture vacation too...
[09:40] <raynice> IoI.hmm
[09:40] <gimmie>  but the vacation was terrible.. I am divorced now.. so sometimes.. lifes journey takes us on detours we didnt expect...
[09:41] <KenWolff>  I often picture a trade, how it should look... like AAPL should climb off 196.80 .... and when it starts to move off 196.85 ... I will hesitate..
[09:41] <gimmie>  but we have to trust.. that in the end.. we are better for it
[09:42] <raynice> my goal has changed from ..ok 20 cent by 2 hours atleast , $1 by day etc.
[09:42] <gimmie>  you cant be so inflexible.. that you cripple your progress..
[09:43] <raynice> trade good 1 min setups ...i dont care you make 5 cents or 500 cents ...
[09:43] <gimmie>  you have learned to relax your idea of where you should be
[09:43] <raynice> yesterday i have big im with zero..but not panicky
[09:43] <raynice> had
[09:44] <raynice> yes
[09:44] <CraigP> yeah, kinda of got away from that.  Make good trades and the money will come
[09:44] <raynice> because i have also been beaten by my ambition
[09:44] <gimmie>  and the ability to relax and accept what is there... gives you much better results.. than trying to force your perception
[09:46] <raynice> when i came to US ...i heard people say..."Take it easy.."  "dont work too hard now..."
[09:46] <raynice> you know at first i didnt get that
[09:47] <raynice> I thought , when you say that you are making people lazy..
[09:48] <raynice> you dont hear that in ASIA..."Take it easy...."
[09:48] <raynice> instead ...more like ..".work  and work ....."





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